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<a href="_home.htm">Home</a> | <a href="_faq.htm">FAQ</a> | <a href="_thesis.htm">Thesis</a> | <a href="_diary.htm">Diary</a> | <a href="_projects.htm">Projects</a> | <a href="resume.htm">Resume</a> | <a href="_todo.htm">Todo</a> | <a href="_index.htm">Index</a> |<p>
<p class='main'><span class="rel">Related:</span> <a href="diary.htm">diary</a><br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">May-22-2009:</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> Ryan Lanham wrote:</span><br/>
<span class="quot2">>></span><br/>
<span class="quot2">>> Your contribution is determined to be inap<a href="prop.htm">prop</a>riate</span><br/>
<span class="quot2">>> by one or more of the list <a href="admin.htm">admin</a>istrators.</span><br/>
<span class="quot2">>> ...</span><br/>
<span class="quot2">>> Any questions or comments should be directed</span><br/>
<span class="quot2">>> to the list <a href="admin.htm">admin</a>istrator at:</span><br/>
<span class="quot2">>></span><br/>
<span class="quot2">>> p2presearch-<a href="own.htm">own</a>er@<a class="ext" href="http://listcultures.org">listcultures.org</a></span><br/>
<br/>
marc fawzi wrote:<br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">> Nice... dictatorship.</span><br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Inap<a href="prop.htm">prop</a>riate? Hmm...<br/>
<br/>
Non-Ap<a href="prop.htm">prop</a>riate. To not ap<a href="prop.htm">prop</a>riate. To not take <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership? To be without <a href="proper.htm">proper</a>ty?<br/>
<br/>
The word '<a href="proper.htm">proper</a>ty' begins with '<a href="proper.htm">proper</a>'.<br/>
<br/>
Actions are arbitrarily deemed '<a href="proper.htm">proper</a>' and 'ap<a href="prop.htm">prop</a>riate' according to who <a href="own.htm">OWN</a>S the associated physical re-<a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>es.<br/>
<br/>
Notice Ryan says you must write to the P2P Research List *<a href="own.htm">OWN</a>ER*.<br/>
<br/>
This is clearly a microcosm of what can and will happen within a '<a href="real.htm">real</a>' P2P community unless we design some sort of internal ruleset to fend against too-powerful <a href="own.htm">own</a>ers.<br/>
<br/>
<span class="bullet">.</span>...<br/>
<br/>
At first I was disinterested and maybe a bit annoyed about your experiment because it seemed to be distracting us from the '<a href="real.htm">real</a>' issue of getting P2P going for the physical side of things.<br/>
<br/>
But thinking last night it <small>(finally)</small> dawned on me this is small but <a href="real.htm">real</a>-life example of some of the very issues we will face when P2P is finally operating the material world.<br/>
<br/>
<span class="bullet">.</span>...<br/>
<br/>
I like to think about how things might <a href="work.htm">work</a> in a physical P2P <a href="work.htm">Work</a>shop.<br/>
<br/>
How will we decide what temperature to set the thermo<a href="stat.htm">stat</a>?<br/>
<br/>
How will we schedule access to the kitchen?<br/>
<br/>
How will we decide where to put the loud music or TV or video <a href="game.htm">game</a>s <small>(audio pollution to some)</small>.<br/>
<br/>
Will we be able to decide anything whatsoever?<br/>
<br/>
<span class="bullet">.</span>...<br/>
<br/>
Capitalism is a dictatorship of <a href="own.htm">own</a>ers with policy enforced by 'police' <small>(policy enforcers)</small> they hire to keep things "in line" according to those <a href="own.htm">own</a>ers' personal whims.<br/>
<br/>
In Capitalism the <a href="own.htm">own</a>ers may declare any arbitrary policy, and we <small>(the non-<a href="own.htm">own</a>ing consumers)</small> must abide or be cast out.<br/>
<br/>
That is the same for how the P2PResearch e<a href="mail.htm">mail</a> list is being operated. Michel is the <a href="own.htm">own</a>er <small>(well, he may be <a href="rent.htm">rent</a>ing from someone else who has an even more 'ultimate' say)</small> and Ryan Lanham is one of his policy enforcers.<br/>
<br/>
I don't have *any* say in how things operate because I have no <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership and I think the <a href="own.htm">own</a>ers <small>(Michel)</small> barely tolerate my presence. It is a totalitarian situation that is certainly NOT how I <a href="pic.htm">pic</a>ture <a href="real.htm">real</a> P2P.<br/>
<br/>
Some restaurants require men wear suit-coats. It's a stupid policy in my mind, but they ARE the <a href="own.htm">own</a>ers after all, so I think they should be able to require it.<br/>
<br/>
Even though <a href="proper.htm">proper</a>ty privatization and excessive <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership is a major problem right now <small>(I can barely afford to <a href="pay.htm">pay</a> for water already because I am <a href="pay.htm">pay</a>ing both <a href="cost.htm">cost</a>s AND <a href="profit.htm">profit</a> since my city is leasing water from a private corporation instead of holding the 'final' water for "we the people"...)</small>,<br/>
<br/>
I believe <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership can be <a href="use.htm">use</a>d in our favor if we can discover how to constrain "<a href="curr.htm">curr</a>ent <a href="own.htm">own</a>ers" from gaining excessive advantage over non-<a href="own.htm">own</a>ers during <a href="trad.htm">trad</a>e.<br/>
<br/>
The beginning of my 'fix' to this problem is by groups of consumers becoming <a href="co-own.htm">co-own</a>ers of physical assets such as a <a href="web.htm">web</a>-server or a restaurant or a bus or whatever so that *they* set their *<a href="own.htm">own</a>* policies instead of some absentee <a href="land.htm">land</a>lord.<br/>
<br/>
Having <a href="real.htm">real</a> <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership brings the fight 'home', and finally gives each consumer-<a href="own.htm">own</a>er a <a href="real.htm">real</a> footing according to the % of <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership in each specific physical re<a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>e.<br/>
<br/>
So if I have 21% <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership in a roto-tiller, I have 21% 'say' <small>(a literal and potent 'vote')</small> in how that <a href="mac.htm">mac</a>hine is to be treated.<br/>
<br/>
<span class="bullet">.</span>..<br/>
<br/>
But what happens when 51% of the <a href="own.htm">own</a>ers of some physical thing want policy to be in one direction while 49% want the policy in a mutually-exclusive 'other' direction <small>(such as requiring suit-coat or not, trimming e<a href="mail.htm">mail</a> messeages or not, having the lights on or off, etc.)</small>?<br/>
<br/>
Today we suffer the Tyranny of the Majority without any <a href="real.htm">real</a>istic means of secession.<br/>
<br/>
But if we had *<a href="real.htm">real</a>* <a href="proper.htm">proper</a>ty <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership, then we might be able to *split* the re<a href="sourc.htm">sourc</a>e during such an im<a href="pass.htm">pass</a>e.<br/>
<br/>
<span class="bullet">.</span>...<br/>
<br/>
For now, we non-<a href="own.htm">own</a>ing consumers <small>(<a href="user.htm">user</a>s)</small> have no <a href="real.htm">real</a> rights. We can only hope the <a href="own.htm">own</a>ers decide our choices are <a href="proper.htm">proper</a>.<br/>
<br/>
We need to "get together" to <a href="co-own.htm">co-own</a> a physical <a href="compu.htm">compu</a>ter and <a href="rent.htm">rent</a> <small>(though in the end need to <a href="own.htm">own</a>)</small> the internet connection for that <a href="mac.htm">mac</a>hine and allow anyone else that is willing to <a href="pay.htm">pay</a> to also become a <a href="co-own.htm">co-own</a>er so we can have sharable control of e<a href="mail.htm">mail</a>, <a href="stor.htm">stor</a>age, <a href="compu.htm">compu</a>tation, etc.<br/>
<br/>
If we can accomplish this for something as relatively cheap as a <a href="http.htm">HTTP</a>/FTP/<a href="imap.htm">IMAP</a>/<a href="smtp.htm">SMTP</a>/etc. server, then we might be able to pound-out some of these same issues in the context of <a href="real.htm">real</a>, <a href="proper.htm">proper</a>, ap<a href="prop.htm">prop</a>riate <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 2:19 PM, marc fawzi wrote:<br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">> Nice... dictatorship.</span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">> ---------- Forwarded message ----------</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> From: <p2presearch-bounces@<a class="ext" href="http://listcultures.org">listcultures.org</a>></span><br/>
<span class="quot">> Date: Fri, May 22, 2009 at 1:16 PM</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> Subject: Request to <a href="mail.htm">mail</a>ing list p2presearch rejected</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> To: marc.fawzi</span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">> Your request to the p2presearch <a href="mail.htm">mail</a>ing list</span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">> Posting of your message <a href="title.htm">title</a>d "Fwd: <small>[p2p-research]</small> <a href="net.htm">Net</a>iquette"</span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">> has been rejected by the list <a href="mod.htm">mod</a>erator. The <a href="mod.htm">mod</a>erator gave the</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> following reason for rejecting your request:</span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">> "Your contribution is determined to be inap<a href="prop.htm">prop</a>riate by one or more of</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> the list <a href="admin.htm">admin</a>istrators.</span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">> Further, you should understand that due to multiple recent complaints</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> and frustrations reported to the list <a href="admin.htm">admin</a>istrators, your <a href="mod.htm">mod</a>erator</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> flag will be set to checked.</span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">> With regard to this specific post:</span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">> First, your <a href="note.htm">note</a> appears to violates widely accepted experimental</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> protocols of research ethics by involving others in an experiment in</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> which they may not wish to <a href="part.htm">part</a>icipate nor have they consented to</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> undergo.</span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">> S<a href="econ.htm">econ</a>d, it appears to be openly hostile to the reasonably understood</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> practicies of the list and seems intentionally meant to antogonize</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> another <a href="user.htm">user</a> without <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>tive cause.</span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">> You are not removed from the list. You may refer any complaints or</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> comments to the list for submission review and general discussion if</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> they are not offensive.</span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<span class="quot">> Ryan Lanham Research List <a href="admin.htm">Admin</a>istrator"</span><br/>
<span class="quot">></span><br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 9:07 AM, Ryan Lanham wrote:<br/>
<span class="quot">> there are only two possible processes for determining how much of any good or service to <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>e:</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> 1)</small> One <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>es what can be sold <a href="profit.htm">profit</a>ably or</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> 2)</small> One <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>es what one is commanded to <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>e from a central point.</span><br/>
<br/>
What about <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>ing for your <a href="own.htm">own</a> consumption?<br/>
The <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>t is not sold and you are your <a href="own.htm">own</a> commander.<br/>
<br/>
Is that case not worth consideration?<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> If one tries to <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>e a good without <a href="profit.htm">profit</a>,</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> then one is attempting to complete a perpetual motion <a href="mac.htm">mac</a>hine</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> ...where the output is continued even though the energy in</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> is greater than the value/demand out.</span><br/>
<br/>
Are you saying <a href="profit.htm">Profit</a> is <a href="use.htm">use</a>d to <a href="pay.htm">pay</a><br/>
for the <a href="cost.htm">Cost</a>s of previous <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>tion?<br/>
<br/>
I thought <a href="profit.htm">Profit</a> was the <a href="diff.htm">diff</a>erence between<br/>
the <a href="pric.htm">Pric</a>e a consumer <a href="pay.htm">pay</a>s for a good,<br/>
and <a href="cost.htm">Cost</a>s the <a href="own.htm">own</a>ers paid for that <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>tion.<br/>
<br/>
I thought <a href="profit.htm">Profit</a> oc<a href="curr.htm">curr</a>ed when the <a href="own.htm">own</a>ers<br/>
receive MORE than the <a href="cost.htm">cost</a>s of <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>tion.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<a href="profit.htm">Profit</a> is important for growth, but growth should not be perpetual.<br/>
<br/>
<a href="produc.htm">Produc</a>tion can be perpetual when <a href="cost.htm">Cost</a>s are <a href="recover.htm">recover</a>ed.<br/>
<br/>
<a href="profit.htm">Profit</a> is not a <a href="cost.htm">Cost</a>, it is a <a href="pay.htm">pay</a>ment *above* <a href="cost.htm">Cost</a> brought about<br/>
by the <a href="pay.htm">pay</a>er's lack of <a href="own.htm">own</a>ership in the Means of <a href="produc.htm">Produc</a>tion.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<span class="quot">> If you <a href="cost.htm">cost</a> more than the world values</span><br/>
<span class="quot">> your good or service, you cannot run forever</span><br/>
<br/>
But what would happen if the world valued your good<br/>
or service at *exactly* the <a href="cost.htm">Cost</a> of it's <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>tion?<br/>
<br/>
I understand <a href="profit.htm">Profit</a> is <a href="curr.htm">curr</a>ently considered necessary<br/>
because we don't <a href="know.htm">know</a> what to otherwise <a href="pay.htm">pay</a> the inve<a href="stor.htm">stor</a>s.<br/>
<br/>
But what if the inve<a href="stor.htm">stor</a>s were the very people intending<br/>
to <a href="use.htm">use</a> or consume those goods or services?<br/>
<br/>
They would be compensated with "at-<a href="cost.htm">cost</a>" <a href="produc.htm">Produc</a>t alone,<br/>
while avoiding the scarcity-seeking that <a href="profit.htm">Profit</a> requires.<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
Would you pre-<a href="pay.htm">pay</a> for "at-<a href="cost.htm">cost</a>" internet or cell-phone service?<br/>
How about organic <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>e or righteous, raw milk?<br/>
<small>[CAUTION: Cow-sharing is illegal in some US <a href="stat.htm">Stat</a>es]</small><br/>
<br/>
If we could get a large number of people to pre-<a href="pay.htm">pay</a> for such a thing,<br/>
then *they* <small>(the consumers)</small> would be the <a href="own.htm">own</a>ers, and their 'return'<br/>
on that investment would be a drastically reduced <a href="pric.htm">pric</a>e.<br/>
<br/>
All those consuming-inve<a href="stor.htm">stor</a>s wouldn't necessarily need to be <a href="work.htm">work</a>ers in that<br/>
exact industry <small>(and in fact there wouldn't be enough <a href="job.htm">job</a>s to fill)</small>.<br/>
<br/>
The important point is that they are the <a href="own.htm">Own</a>ers,<br/>
for when <a href="own.htm">Own</a>ers and Consumers are the same, <a href="profit.htm">Profit</a> is undefined.<br/>
<br/>
That is a case of <a href="produc.htm">produc</a>tion without <a href="profit.htm">Profit</a>, but is it worth considering?<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">May-12-2009:</span> <a class="ext" href="http://GNU.org/software/global/model.html">GNU.org/software/global/model.html</a> <span class="quot2">>><a href="gnu.htm">GNU</a> GLOBAL is a BOKINware defined in the following documentation. Our business is based on this business <a href="mod.htm">mod</a>el. Since this <a href="mod.htm">mod</a>el is written as a general public business <a href="mod.htm">mod</a>el after the manner of the <a href="gnu.htm">GNU</a> <a href="gpl.htm">GPL</a>, everyone can <a href="start.htm">start</a> a business based on it.</span><br/>
<br/>
<hr/><span class="date">May-08-2009:</span> <a class="ext" href="http://ZCommunications.org/zparecon/reimaginingsociety.htm">ZCommunications.org/zparecon/reimaginingsociety.htm</a> <span class="quot2">>>Re<a href="imag.htm">imag</a>ining Society <a href="part.htm">part</a>icipants have generated a vast outpouring of content bearing upon vision for a <a href="new.htm">new</a> society and strategy to attain the aims.</p>
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