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comment regarding #706 (More borg laws) #946
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On round start, every Borg is issued with a finely-crafted Lawset. i.e:
The purpose of an Ion Storm as per:
Ion Storms, fundamentally; scramble the finely-crafted leaning tower of Laws. By removing, replacing, scrambling the order or entirely changing the lawset. The 'point' of finely-crafted laws is:
It does impact the Borg, as it now has a more wider and interpretable lawset: That's just one thought process. The negative event has scrambled the finely constructed logic of a Borg, forever changing it's personality and it's capabilities. Think of it as a human that could previously only tell lies, slipped on a banana peel; hit his head and can now only tell the truth. It fundamentally shakes up the possibilities.
That's not a bad thing. As you say.
The SecHud doesn't tell Security sophonts, doesn't mean it's not useless and Borgs don't particularly have much use for a SecHud anyways, refer to above about us being told different things OOC about who is and isn't crew. Player Interpretation is good. It leads to more dynamic scenario. A borg watching a felinid try hunt down a mice to chomp, could now think "Oh shit! My Laws! An interesting dynamic situation!" and try to intervene, as just an example.
If you want a slave, get a Basic Borg or a Service Borg or a Mining Borg, who have Law 2. This is a cleaning cyborg who's concern is cleaning. Similar to a Medical Borg who's focus is on saving lives, or an Engineering Borg who's focus is on repairing the station. Also, no one is forcing people to pick the Jani or Med or Engi Borg, it's serving you in a way that isn't serving your every command. Also, you can still "game" Borgs into giving you their laws. "Hey Jani Borg, I found a HUGE puddle! So messy! I'll only tell you if you tell me your laws."
Also they're just shitters for randomly breaking a drone instead of having Sci dismantle it / find it a new chassis. However this is covered as an issue in:
A) A Borg can logic itself that it's own destruction would risk their ability to carry out X law, but if someone does decide to kill themselves then uh, their loss? They just lost their own ghost role and they're a shitter for it.
Then we're back to the "hands and knees" slavery that's done by Regular and Service Borgs. If you really want someone to answer every demand, just don't build Borgs with custom lawsets. Jani, Medical and Engineering Borgs serve you in different ways that isn't stating their laws repeatedly.
P.S I will fix Law 4 and 2 of Janitor Lawset, wrapping it in premium-grade Anti-Shitter Bubblewrap. TLDR: I will fix Law 4 and 2. This is a perspective thing, Borgs are still servants and the variety and careful-structure of laws just leads to more interpretability and variety regarding Ion storms. Moar player choice and Moar RP. |
Wizden rules so it's not something we follow, especially given we're not an LRP server.
Again, I've been told that anyone on the manifest is a crew member so 🤷, also anyone with agent ID is already crew cuz they're on the manifest
None of this voids the SecHud or the use of the Agent ID. Borgs still have the SecHud and can make use of that information however they're allowed to by their Laws.
A Borg concerned with protection of station inhabitants wouldn't pick sides; and if they did then they could reason up the value of one or the other. Not that a random passenger should be trying to kill a mouse but point still stands; it wouldn't aim to protect one over the other but if it came down to it it'd be up to player choice and interpretation how their lawset would decide it.
Ask them why they were asking a Borg that's designed for maintenance of the station / healthcare to open a door they don't need access to 🤷 .
You probably would've been killed from what I've been spectating, a few rounds in a row these new lawsets have made Borgs with non-crewsimov valid but that's just an aside.
If your laws don't specify your level of obedience then the world is your oyster in terms of choice, if I tell a Borg to fetch me a ham sandwich and it tells me no then I can clearly work out what it doesn't have to do. The question is then on; why is the Roboticist building Maintenance Borgs > Servant Borgs? Again, I'll revise the laws to shitter-proof them and make the emag variants make more sense but stripping variety & interpretability out of laws so someone can get a door opened because someone couldn't resist building Janitor Borgs is counter-productive
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Borgs have no ways to check manifest, for the record. Cannot use ID consoles to check it nor have a PDA.
Firstly this is taken from their MRP server, salamander, secondly it is not because THEY have precision about behaviors on silicons and their servers are mostly LRP we can just ignore it. We do not have a definition/silicon laws on delta and it's something that's missing, moreover I shouldn't say we have to apply it here, but it was a reference onto where crew is defined. Additionally, I've seen someone ask "what is crew" many times, and the answer is almost always "it's crew if it has job ID on your hud"
the point is not that the crew is in wrong to go "law 2 open door", it's that if they don't know the OOC change, they can't KNOW that jani, mediborg and mayhaps engiborg do not have said law 2 (engiborg to a certain degree).
It is information irrelevant to their law unless the borg player makes the gap themselves of "station inhabitants = crew"
Borgs with non-crewsimov valid but that's just an aside.
I'm not addressing what they should and should not do, I'm addressing issues regarding WHO is defined as crew and that anyborg, excluding lads like syndieborg, SENSICALLY should be able to state their laws when demanded, it's way better than just crew going "borg do that" and the borg can do it if they want to or not, but someone in game shouldn't have to find a trick to get a borg to state it's laws. |
space-wizards/space-station-14#25500
Still Wizden
No one knows OOC that Borgs have any laws, nor what their 3 laws are? A new player does not know what a Borg's standard laws are either.
Someone in game doesn't need a Borg's Laws, a random Chef doesn't need to know it's Laws. The only person who's concern it is, is the roboticist or whoever is concerning themself with Cyborgs; at which point, they can just open their panel and see something's fucked... |
it's a thing that's in the work, it doesn't justify that what is "crew" and what the borg should protect be through checking manifest, I maintain that borg laws need to specify "crew", either when it's obey them or protect them.
It remains as the source that defines "what is crew". Other than just being general knowledge that you can strictly say what is and what isn't crew if it has proper icon or not.
I very specifically said the OOC change, not everyone is aware of the change you've done to laws, so irrelevant. Plus a new player can literally just ask a borg it's laws, then he very much may not for janiborg and mediborg.
One, correct, not everyone needs to KNOW the laws, counterpoint, see the point made above. Second point, a borg hit by an ion storm doesn't have a fault in it's system visible by just opening panel, so no for an emagged borg yeah, you can, otherwise it remains an issue. I'll just make a PR modifying the lawsets so it doesn't have said issues at this point. |
Description
After looking into it, and experimenting with ONE major changed lawset, the janitorial one, I found several issues with the new lawset:
Major ones:
-"crew" (the core part of crewsimov) is replaced with "charge", meaning that for example, an ion storm that goes "X is harmful to crew" does NOT impact the borg, as they do not have directive regarding crew, rendering ion storms quite useless regarding those kind of laws, while I find myself that the fun part of being a malf borg in those case is doing everything in your power to protect crew from X until you get ripped out of your chassis.
Along with this comes the problem with what is "station's inhabitants". It was, OOC defined that crew is whoever has a recognised job ID icon through the borg sechud. With this chassis, a mice/station pet could be a station inhabitant, it's not necessarily bad, but considering that it straight up changes what is ""crew"", it partly renders the sechud useless along with let's say, a SPIDER could be considered station inhabitant, and therefore be defended fully by the borg (they crawl in maints and spawn, that's more player interpretation.).
-In that specific chassis, among others, (namely medical one), the "law 2" (quite certain I need not explain it to you) is gone. While the borg are for example, given tasks, janiborg must clean/"fight" puddles etc.. They do NOT have to obey crew orders, it may be a plus to some but for me it's an extreme drawback, and mostly defeats the point of a borg to be a serviable machine for any crew members. Alternatively if they are malfunctionnal, at no point do they have to state laws, and that would not make them malf, having an extra law would, basically if crew decided to take a janiborg down for not stating laws, they'd just be damaging NT property that is working correctly.
Minor ones:
-Law 3 of crewsimov is not present under any form for the new lawsets, I believe. The borg has no incentive for self preservation, it can just smash it's chassis which is VERY anti NT mindset and their policy of AI slavery, RP wise who wants a bot that can just smash itself.
I am well aware this is more of a nitpick and I doubt that anyone put in such chassis would just go "I'll destroy that body they made for me" but it still shows as an issue to me.
-that's regarding the fluff, flavor of the laws, they are pretty, well written, but aside from missing important directions the crewsimov laws have, some are not laws, rather than definitions without real purpose. Addressing mainly law 2, 3 and 5. All of those could be condensed into a law 3/4 that goes after regular crewsimov that goes "your secondary purpose is to ensure the station's cleanliness, do all you can to clean, clear off trash and keep a sanitary environment for your crew"
TL:DR, as a person who played a DECENT bit of borg before this change (40hours ish of borg) I feel like those laws need to follow more strictly basic crewsimov and make sure it keeps a borg as a tool for the crew with many options for side tasks, or to better aid the crew.
Screenshots
reference images regarding every laws mentionned above, along with an ion law to go along with the example.
along with the regular lawset "crewsimov" used as reference:
Additional context
This is definitely an issue to me, but mayhaps a discussion for others regarding the PR, what I am asking is a solution or a revert of said PR.
In the following days, if no concrete point or choice is made, I will make a PR myself reverting those changes and refer to this issue as the driving argument.
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